Snak

"Der er rent faktisk flere jøder der er flygtet til Israel end der er palæstinensere der er flygtet fra Israel."

Fra arabiske lande?

Lidt over 1 mio jøder er fordrevet fra arabiske lande. Ca 700.000 palæstinensere er fordrevet fra Israel.

Et mindre antal palæstinensere vendte efter 1948 tilbage til Israel, primært Galilæa.

Ca. 700.000 jøder fra de arabiske lande flygtede til Israel. Resten primært til USA og Frankrig.

I jødernes tilfælde er det dog sværere at sondre mellem flygtninge og "frivillige" indvandrere, eftersom Israel vil have haft en stor tiltrækningskraft for mange, både økonomisk, kulturelt/religiøst, osv.

De færreste palæstinensere ville frivilligt have søgt mod en ghetto i Jordan eller Libanon, så her kan vi godt regne med, at udvandringen var tvungen for langt de flestes vedkommende.

Det sagt, så forværredes situationen nærmest over hele linjen for jøder i de andre mellemøstlige lande, da Krigen mod Terror begyndte.

I jødernes tilfælde er det dog sværere at sondre mellem flygtninge og "frivillige" indvandrere, eftersom Israel vil have haft en stor tiltrækningskraft for mange, både økonomisk, kulturelt/religiøst, osv.

Vi kan jo se på lidt "frivillige indvandrere" ifølge Wikipedia:

Marocco:
In June 1948, soon after Israel was established and in the midst of the first Arab–Israeli war, violent anti-Jewish riots broke out in Oujda and Djerada, leading to deaths of 44 Jews. In 1948–49, after the massacres, 18000 Moroccan Jews left the country for Israel. ... Incidents of anti-Jewish violence continued through the 1950s --- In 1955, a mob broke into the Jewish mellah in Mazagan (known today as El Jadida) and caused its 1700 Jewish residents to flee to the European quarters of the city. The houses of some 200 Jews were too badly damaged during the riots for them to return.

Algeria
Almost all Jews of Algeria left upon independence in 1962, particularly as "the Algerian Nationality Code of 1963 excluded non-Muslims from acquiring citizenship"

Libyia
The most severe racial violence between the start of World War II and the establishment of Israel erupted in Tripoli in November 1945. Over a period of several days more than 140 Jews (including 36 children) were killed, hundreds were injured, 4000 were displaced and 2,400 were reduced to poverty. Five synagogues in Tripoli and four in provincial towns were destroyed, and over 1000 Jewish residences and commercial buildings were plundered in Tripoli alone ... The pogroms continued in June 1948, when 15 Jews were killed and 280 Jewish homes destroyed ... On 31 December 1958 a decree was issued by the President of the Executive Council of Tripolitania, which ordered the dissolution of the Jewish Community Council ... In 1967, during the Six-Day War, the Jewish population of over 4000 was again subjected to riots ... the Libyan government "faced with a complete breakdown of law and order ... urged the Jews to leave the country temporarily", permitting them each to take one suitcase and the equivalent of $50 ... On 21 July 1970 the Libyan government issued a law which confiscated assets of the Jews who had previously left Libya.

Iraq
In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted

Egypt
The exodus of Egyptian Jews was impacted by the 1945 Anti-Jewish Riots in Egypt, though such emigration was not significant as the government stamped the violence out and the Egyptian Jewish community leaders were supportive of King Farouk. In 1948, approximately 75000 Jews lived in Egypt. Around 20000 Jews left Egypt during 1948–49 following the events of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (including the 1948 Cairo bombings).[123] A further 5000 left between 1952 and 1956, in the wake of the Egyptian Revolution of 1952 and later the false flag Lavon Affair.[123] The Israeli invasion as part of the Suez Crisis caused a significant upsurge in emigration, with 14000 Jews leaving in less than six months between November 1956 and March 1957, and 19000 further emigrating over the next decade

Yemen
there were about 63000 Jews in Yemen in 1948. Today, there are about 200 left. In 1947, rioters killed at least 80 Jews in Aden,The Israeli government´s Operation Magic Carpet evacuated around 44000 Jews from Yemen to Israel in 1949 and 1950.

Lebanon
negative attitudes toward Jews increased after 1948, and, by 1967, most Lebanese Jews had emigrated—to Israel, the United States, Canada, and France ... The remaining Jewish community was particularly hard hit by the civil war in Lebanon, and by the mid-1970s, the community collapsed. In the 1980s, Hezbollah kidnapped several Lebanese Jewish businessmen, and in the 2004 elections, only one Jew voted in the municipal elections. There are now only between 20 and 40 Jews living in Lebanon.

Syria
In 1947, rioters in Aleppo burned the city´s Jewish quarter and killed 75 people --- In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen ... In March 1964, the Syrian government issued a decree prohibiting Jews from traveling more than three miles from the limits of their hometowns.[199] In 1967, in the aftermath of the Six-Day War, antisemitic riots broke out in Damascus and Aleppo. Jews were allowed to leave their homes only for few hours daily. Many Jews found it impossible to pursue their business ventures because the larger community was boycotting their products.

Bahrein
in 1948 Bahrain saw rock-throwing against Jews, but on 5 December, mobs in the capital of Manama looted Jewish homes and shops, destroyed the synagogue, beat any Jews they could find

Iran
The migration of Persian Jews after Iranian Revolution was mainly due to fear of religious persecution

Afghanistan
The Afghan Jewish community declined from about 40000 in the early 20th century to 5000 by 1934 due to persecution.

Pakistan
Anti-Israeli sentiment and violence often flared during ensuing conflicts in the Middle East, resulting in a further movement of Jews out of Pakistan.

Sudan
Following independence in 1956 hostility against the Jewish community began to grow, and from 1957 many Sudanese Jews began to leave for Israel

Langt de fleste jøder blev altså fordrevet fra de islamiske lande - ligesom langt de fleste palæstinensere blev fordrevet fra Israel. Og selvfølgelig vil Israel være enormt tiltrækkende hvis alternativet er at leve i et islamisk land - det er ikke muligt som jøde i dag.

Jeg er ikke sikker på, jødernes fordrivelse fra Afghanistan før 1934 er relevant. Så kunne man også sige, palæstinenserne skal bøde for Holocaust eller whatever.

Anyway, der var en vis pull-effekt i jødernes tilfælde, vil du vel medgive, mens der for palæstinensernes alene var tale om push.

@Pibe

Ikke udelukkende.

Jeg ved ikke hvorfor folk ikke vil anerkende, at jøderne er blevet fordrevet fra de islamiske lande og i stedet påstår de israelske herligheder som udslagsgivende. Det er ikke muligt som jøde at bo i et arabisk/islamisk land i dag. Jøderne er fordrevet fra islamiske/arabiske lande og, der er flere jøder der er fordrevet fra disse lande end der er palæstinensere der er fordrevet fra Israel.

På den anden side set var der en stor kampagne fra de arabiske lande om, at palæstinenserne skulle forlade Palæstine op til angrebet i 1948 /hvilket de mest højreorienterede jøder i dag læger meget vægt på) hvor man ville smide israelerne i havet. Det fik ikke så få til at tage til Gaza (der var erklæret sikkert område af Egypten), Jordan, Libanon og Syrien. Her er altså også tale om en vis pull-effekt. Disse lande har så sidenhen nægtet de palæstinensiske flygtninge - som de fik til at flygte - muligheden for at forlade flygtningelejrene og få et normalt liv.

Jeg ved ikke hvorfor folk ikke vil anerkende, at jøderne er blevet fordrevet fra de islamiske lande og i stedet påstår de israelske herligheder som udslagsgivende.

Det gjorde jeg dog heller ikke.

Men Israel har jo været attraktiv selv for jøder, som havde tålelige eller decideret gunstige forhold i Europa og Nordamerika.

Man kan også sammenligne med kopterne, som bliver behandlet forfærdeligt i Egypten, men ikke rigtig har noget alternativ.

Det er et faktum, at palæstinenserne i Israel har langt bedre forhold, end jøder har det i noget arabisk land (de der måtte være tilbage). Men det kan de øvrige palæstinensere så ikke bruge til så meget.

Måske er min pointe bare, at det er at sammenligne æbler og pærer uanset.

Disse lande har så sidenhen nægtet de palæstinensiske flygtninge - som de fik til at flygte - muligheden for at forlade flygtningelejrene og få et normalt liv.

De vil jo nødig overtage, hvad de ser som Israels selvskabte problemer.

Mon ikke mere det har handlet om at lægge pres på Israel...

Både og.

Hvorfor skulle Israels fjender hjælpe dem med at etnisk udrense endnu flere palæstinensere?